The Lass Word: The Future May be Brighter Than You Think
Recent history indicates quarterback transitions don't necessarily mean decline.
By KenLass
There seems to be widespread resignation amongst Packer fans that, when the team decides to part ways with Aaron Rodgers, whenever that is, Green Bay is likely to fall into a temporary period of decline and mediocrity. After all, replacing a franchise quarterback doesn’t happen overnight, particularly when that quarterback is one of the best to ever play the game.
Maybe that school of thought is fueled by the Packers’ descent into a quarter century of struggle after the retirement of Bart Starr in 1972, at least for those of us that went through it. Much has been made of Green Bay having back to back Hall of Fame quarterbacks, yet when the transition was made from Brett Favre to Rodgers, the team dropped from 13-3 to 6-10 in Rodgers’ first year as a starter.
But times change. College football seems to be producing young signal callers better prepared to play in the NFL immediately. I am not so sure decline is a foregone conclusion when the Packers make the transition. I researched eight teams who moved on from their franchise quarterback within the past three years. Only two of them had a worse record the first season after the change. Four of them stayed essentially the same, and two others actually saw their record improve. Here is the breakdown:
New England Patriots/Tom Brady
We can debate whether Brady is the GOAT, but there’s no question he is the most successful. In twenty years as the starter, he took the Pats to nine Super Bowls, winning six of them. He was selected to the Pro Bowl twelve times, first team All Pro three times. He was allowed to walk after the 2019 season. New England signed Cam Newton to replace him In 2020. Their record dropped from 12-4 the previous year, to 7-9. They missed the playoffs for the first time in twelve years. But under the brilliant leadership of Bill Belichick, the Pats quickly returned to the post season, led by rookie quarterback Mack Jones, in 2021. They slipped to 8-9 in 2022, after Jones missed three games. The team seems committed to continue to build around Jones.
New Orleans Saints/Drew Brees
After fifteen years as the starter, thirteen Pro Bowls and a Super Bowl title, Brees retired after the 2020 season. In 2021 the Saints went with Jameis Winston and former Packer Taysom Hill. Their record declined from 12-4 to 9-8. They missed the playoffs but maintained a respectable winning record. With Winston recovering from injuries, New Orleans started Andy Dalton in fourteen games in 2022. Their record regressed to 7-10. Their quarterback situation is unsettled heading into the coming season.
Los Angeles (San Diego) Chargers/Phillip Rivers
Rivers started under center fourteen years and was selected to the Pro Bowl eight times. He departed as a free agent after the 2019 season. The Chargers immediately drafted Justin Herbert. Their record the following year improved from 5-11 to 7-9 and Herbert was Offensive Rookie of the Year. The team improved to 9-8 in 2021, and last season finished 10-7, making it to the playoffs where they were upset by the Jaguars 31-30. The Chargers are on the verge of re-signing Herbert to a huge deal.
Seattle Seahawks/Russell Wilson
Wilson was the main man for the Hawks for ten years, which included nine Pro Bowls, and two Super Bowls, with one championship. He was traded to Denver following the 2021 season. Seattle brought in career back-up Geno Smith to be the new starter and the team got better, improving from 7-10 to 9-8, making the playoffs. Smith was named Comeback Player of the Year. The Seahawks are trying to re-sign him.
Pittsburgh Steelers/Ben Roethlisberger
Big Ben started eighteen years for the Steelers, taking the team to three Super Bowls, winning two of them. (The loss was to the Packers in 2010.) He retired after the 2021 campaign. The Steelers drafted Kenny Pickett as his replacement, also using Mitch Trubisky in 2022. Their record stayed essentially the same, going from 9-7-1 to 9-8. Pickett has shown enough to indicate he can lead the team back to the playoffs.
Houston Texans/Deshaun Watson
Watson started four years in Houston, with three Pro Bowl selections. Plagued by injuries and off the field problems, he was traded to Cleveland after the 2020 season. Using Davis Mills and Tyrod Taylor in 2021, the Texans, who were already bad, stayed essentially the same, going from 4-12 to 4-13 in 2021. This past year was a revolving door under center with Mills, Jeff Driskel and Kyle Allen all starting, and the record was roughly level at 3-13-1. The Texans are looking for a quarterback.
Carolina Panthers/Cam Newton
Newton led the Panthers for nine seasons, with three pro Bowls and one Super Bowl appearance and league MVP award. He was allowed to walk as a free agent after the 2019 season. Carolina went with Teddy Bridgewater in 2020 and the record stayed the same at 5-11 to 5-11. Carolina actually brought Newton back for eight games in 2021 but the record essentially stayed the same at 5-12. In 2022 the Panthers rotated Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold and P.J. Walker, and despite the merry-go-round, actually improved to 7-10. The team is looking for a quarterback.
Atlanta Falcons/Matt Ryan
The Boston College alum led the Falcons under center for fourteen years, with four Pro Bowls and one Super Bowl Appearance. He left as a free agent after the 2021 season. Atlanta started Marcus Mariota for thirteen games in 2022, and rookie Desmond Ridder for four games. Their record stayed the same, going from 7-10 to 7-10. The Falcons have been reported to be shopping for a new starter, but might be encouraged to stick with Ridder for one more season to see if he develops.
Take what you will from these examples, but what they indicate to me is that chances are pretty good the Packers will at least stay the same, and might even improve, when Jordan Love takes over the reins from Aaron Rodgers. The only question is when we will get to find out.
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Ken Lass is a former Green Bay television sports anchor and 43 year media veteran, a lifelong Packers fan, and a shareholder.
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Comments (170)
T7Steve
March 06, 2023 at 06:24 am
With coaching (especially on D) and the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball, QB is the very least of the Packers problems.
Wouldn't hurt to add some playmakers of course, but it won't matter if they don't build from the inside out.
We've seen this play out enough!
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 07:09 am
I think the inside is going to be just fine.
The OL improved after Bakhtiari and Jenkins got healthier, and they made the OL switches. Jenkins went back to probably his best position along the OL. They slide Runyan over to RG and with an offseason to get his footwork right, he should feel much more comfortable there. Myers I felt improved as the season wore on. Lets not forget he missed most of his rookie season. So he is still a young player. But he looked like he improved.
They need to figure out what they are going to do at RT, but I feel they have plenty of capable players there. Starting with Tom. Who I feel is Bakthiari 2.0.
I think our Offense is going to be much improved this year, and the biggest reason is because our OL will be improved.
T7Steve
March 06, 2023 at 07:37 am
Yes, I have no problem with that O-line with Nijman OR Tom. I like Nijman's size. Need to work on the depth, but it's ok. TEs is the next step.
Now the D-line. Need more depth there and on the edge especially. The successful teams lately can boast about 2 starting lines to be able to keep up with today's offenses and injuries. I think it could mostly be addressed in the draft before even thinking about FAs.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 08:15 am
Yeah I am curious to see what they do with Yosh. I would like him back, but I'm curious to see if they do bring him back or not. At the very least Yosh is a perfect backup swing tackle. Or he is the starting RT and Tom is the top backup at all 5 spots.
Yes, they have to improve the DL. I think Wyatt is going to take a big step in year 2. But they need more. I like Slaton, but they need more help on the DL. I wouldn't be surprised if they used more draft picks on the DL this year. They need to strengthen the DL.
NickPerry
March 06, 2023 at 06:40 am
As Rodgers Watch 3.0 continues I've made my feelings known over, and over, AND OVER again. I'm of the opinion the Packers record would have been the same or better in 2022 and will be better in 2023 WITH Love. Rodgers was SLOW last season. He moved in the pocket like like ice cold syrup does coming out of the bottle. He's clearly slowed down from 2020 to 2021 and then more again in 2022. WHAT do people expect in 2023? Look, the guy is/was GREAT, one of the best ever. I will forever be grateful that Ted T had the foresight to take Rodgers when he did.
People around the Packers and players have all said pretty much the same thing... Love has PROGRESSED the last 12-18 months or at least that's what I've been reading and hearing on podcasts. We saw a HUGE improvement against Philly and contrary to what some say here, according to Darius Slay, an All Pro CB for Philly, they WEREN'T playing a prevent.
My point is had Love been forced to start in 2020 or 2021 I think it would have been BAD. But like Rodgers he made a big jump in year 3, AND Rodgers took 3 steps back. I think with Mini-Camps, OTA's, TC, and a few Preseason games, Love continues to grow and will throughout 2023. Rodgers went 6-10 his first season and then jumped to 11-5 in his second. Looking at the schedule, Loves involvement with ALL activities prior to TC, I think he goes at least 10-7 year one as starter.
Maybe I'm wrong and Love just sucks, he stinks up each stadium looking worse and worse each week. IF that happens then at least we know. Not only then we know what the Packers have. Another year of Rodgers I think we know what we have there too.
PackEyedOptimist
March 06, 2023 at 06:49 am
Agree with everything here, Nick.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 07:02 am
"We saw a HUGE improvement against Philly and contrary to what some say here, according to Darius Slay, an All Pro CB for Philly, they WEREN'T playing a prevent."
I saw someone this last week (I don't remember who), came out and said that they were playing prevent.
I didn't feel like they were at the time, but maybe they were playing softer coverages?
dobber
March 06, 2023 at 07:23 am
He still made the throws he was asked to make...
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 07:54 am
More significant in my view was the evidence if reads and progression in any case. It’s frustrating that we got no further opportunities to see him in action.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 08:04 am
I thought he made one mistake in that game while throwing. That was not throwing to the guy in front of him (I'm blanking on who that was), and he chose to throw to Watson? in the end zone. But on that play Watson should have gotten a holding or DPI call if I remember right.
I remember the play, but I'm confusing myself. Probably since its monday.
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 08:17 am
All QBs make some mis reads. Not all go through progressions. It’s too small of a sample to go far with, but it was noticeable what he was doing.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 09:08 am
Agreed.
croatpackfan
March 06, 2023 at 08:28 am
There was 3 incompletes. First to Aaron Jones, beautiful back shoulder throw AJ should catch, but he did not. It was throw to the right sideline.
Second was to Watson while Jordan was on move to the end zone, and he had Lazard just won vs his cover and Lazard was at about 5 yard line.
Third was to Randall Cobb in the end zone and that throw was obvious DPI as defender bump into Cobb while ball was foot or two away from Cobb. Another beautiful throw from Jordan Love.
Jordan was playing to try to win the game and there was not much time left on the clock. So they needed to rush, if Packers wanted to make outcome complicated.
Just to refresh your memory.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 09:11 am
Yes the 2nd play is the one I was referring too. I was blanking who was open down the right sideline. Some reason I was thinking it was Tonyan, but knew that wasn't right.
I believe on that play Watson was being held and it wasn't called? I could be wrong about that. I could be mixing it up with another play as well.
croatpackfan
March 06, 2023 at 11:08 am
No, Watson wasn't beat his cover yet, that was not DPI or hold. It was not good throw from Jordan Love. I believe he rushed to little so he placed the ball out of reach of defender, but also out of reach of Watson. But, he had Lazard behind his coverage and would be better if he sailed the throw to Allen Lazard. If throw not be for TD (but very possible it would be), it would surely be first and goal at 1 or 2. DPI was on throw to Cobb, also in the end zone. You must be put that 2 throws together in your memory. No problem. It was so hectic and excited at the time that it is no wonder why memories can be little blurred.
I know for sure because I was looking those analyses from people who are analyzing QB plays.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 08:01 am
He did. By far it was the best he looked.
But I thought it was interesting that I saw someone come out and say that they were in prevent. Because everything I saw before that said they weren't.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 06, 2023 at 08:51 am
NP,
Your comments mirror mine. I believe the Packers won - loss record in 2022 with Love at the helm would have been every bit as good as Rodgers. I too think with a healthy Love starting the Pack likely to have a winning record in 2023. Love is the real deal! There isn't any doubt in my mind, but he needs more weapons on offense. A Kincaid, or Quentin Johnston, or both would be huge for both Love & the Packer offense. I am excited for change in 2023 if AR is gone and Love is the QB. It is time!
Racingdad
March 06, 2023 at 09:09 am
Knack- you and I ( plus most fans) agree with everything you pointed out !! If ar stays in 23 I will be so disappointed with this team and my expectations will be greatly diminished my excitement for game day will be much less and my hope for future way down as we would go further into cap hell while wasting the best years for our young qb to grow with his team. I don’t understand why people want to run it back one more time to get same or less reward ? Even if we could sneak into playoffs if ar is back we don’t have anywhere near the team to win it all !! Maybe he can take a team like the jets ( who sucked for many years to be able to build up this team) to sb but not gb !! LET HIM GO !! NOW !!
murf7777
March 06, 2023 at 11:21 am
NP, I don't know what your take on Love was in the past. I find it Interesting and comical that many want Rodgers gone, so many are on the Love train when over the past much of what I read was how terrible he was in the games he played in.
One day Love's terrible, the following he's got all this potential. The narrative changes to support their point of view.
murf7777
March 06, 2023 at 11:21 am
NP, I don't know what your take on Love was in the past. I find it Interesting and comical that many want Rodgers gone, so many are on the Love train when over the past much of what I read was how terrible he was in the games he played in.
One day Love's terrible, the following he's got all this potential. The narrative changes to support their point of view.
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 12:18 pm
Sorry, I’m not really following that narrative either way. I recall Rodgers being reamed as a glass cannon that could not stop running in circles. Then he gradually wasn’t. That tends to be how it goes with improvement and it’s not constant, but the highs get higher and more regular. Unfortunately, we haven’t got to see enough of Love to do other than see he’s made progress to some degree.
However, Rodgers is the poster child for looking awful at first, flashing, then starting to looking sporadically good (to those willing to accept it and recognizing it at that stage). Then came Dallas and a sizable stretch of mostly good play in a real game. Love has yet to show that, but he’s also yet to have a chance. He has now flashed, albeit briefly, though.
murf7777
March 07, 2023 at 12:42 pm
You must be really old, because your memory is fading. Many, not all, I don’t remember if you were part of it we’re constantly trashing Love.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 06, 2023 at 02:20 pm
Murf,
My point of view has never changed regarding Jordan Love. Back in 2020, I predicted the Packers drafting Love & he was my choice (other than Jefferson). Once Jefferson was selected I kept hoping for Love and once I heard the Packers traded up I told everyone at my draft party it was for Love. I have shared this at least a half dozen times. Plus, I have thrown my support & my prediction about Love's abilities eventual success & upside. I read & watched Love extensively before and after the draft. I believe he is the real deal!
murf7777
March 07, 2023 at 12:36 pm
Knock, you’re one of the few who wasn’t critiquing Love’s play. I was arguing that a couple of games much less a full year hardly deserves the criticism that was presented over and over on this site. Now I just see folks defending their position and bring on Love as he’s now the answer. LOL The truth hurts.
BAMABADGER
March 06, 2023 at 03:10 pm
"much of what I read was how terrible he was in the games he played in." What games are you referring? Chiefs game two season ago, when MLF's game plan ignored that the blitzing Chiefs might even increase blitzing against an inexperienced first start for a young QB. Insult to injury, MLF made no adjustment, surprise. With that said, even with many offensive starter out with injury or illness, GB had a chance to win. Love's only other opportunity was against the starters last season at Philly in the second half. Eagles D starters were on the field. He had a very good game. The JL real game canvas is very incomplete, but personally I'm encouraged that the time is now to move on. Get extra draft choices and a fiscally sound cap. The future can be bright sooner not late. GPG.
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 03:50 pm
"The JL real game canvas is very incomplete, but personally I'm encouraged that the time is now to move on."
Hear, hear!
I have a sneaking suspicion AR12 will announce his plans tomorrow on the PMS. Lets pray he's decided he wants to move on.
If in fact, he has decided to move on, it will be easy to get him traded, easy to install Love, and very easy to move on to a better cap situation...
If he says he wants to stay in GB, I still hold out hope Gutey trades him, but that hope is slim.
murf7777
March 07, 2023 at 12:40 pm
Bama, “season ago, when MLF's game plan ignored that the blitzing Chiefs might even increase blitzing against an inexperienced first start for a young QB”
That isn’t what most stated on this site, it was more like…..”he’s terrible, he can’t play, etc….few were stating something like you just said. I was, because I was at the game and stated it was very windy and a very difficult place to play, how loud it was and Mahommes also had a bad game due to the windy conditions.
My point is stay what you kept preaching vs changing your positions now that you want a change from Rodgers.
Alberta_Packer
March 06, 2023 at 01:38 pm
"SLOW" - is the operative word - not only as it pertains to Rodgers but also the Packers "brain trust." Slow, as they (management), were to release an obsolete McCarthy. Slow as to deal with a health compromised Thompson. Slow as to move on from mediocre (and less) players. Slow to act on the Rodgers golden trade opportunity. Now slow walking everyone into the 2023-24 season.
An important leadership practice that I learned was Hire Slow - Fire Fast. That being so, it seems that the Packers upper management has got it backwards, Hire Fast - Fire Slow. Thus the results to date.
EnemyTerritory
March 06, 2023 at 06:40 am
All I know is that it is yet again snowing here in enemy territory. Did QB12 see his shadow or not?
Good coaching, good drafting and cap management are key to preventing the return of prolonged bad packer football. I’m not sold on the coaching; the drafts have been hit or miss, and the team is in cap hell til at least 2025. Add in that not only will the team transition away from ACR their will be a change at the chief executive when Murphy retires. All told this can be a great reset for the better or much worse. Clutching my pearls here in the snow…
EnemyTerritory
March 06, 2023 at 06:42 am
There not their…
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 06:56 am
Let me ask you this. Out of all the QB's listed above, how many would you put on the same platform as Rodgers?
I only see 1, and that is Tom Brady.
And how have the Patriots faired without Brady since he left? Remember that the Patriots have the best coach in the league.
In their primes there isn't another QB that you would have traded for Rodgers in his prime. Even when we can say Rodgers is not in his prime anymore, he is still one of the top 10 QB's in the league. To replace that is not small feat.
Love maybe the guy to do it, he may not be. I have no clue. Quite frankly none of us do. But if they decide to go that route, it would be wise of them to prepare another QB to be the guy as well incase Love isn't. I don't think it would be wise to put all their eggs in the Love basket. They should keep a few at least to put in another draft picks basket.
PackEyedOptimist
March 06, 2023 at 07:15 am
I agree RC. However, following the good showings by several QBs at the combine, I actually expect Rodgers to stay in GB this year, as I now think team's will roll the dice on a young guy over Rodgers. If Rodgers stays, then NEXT year will be the year to draft another QB.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 07:20 am
yeah I agree. Basically I'm just saying that whenever they would move on from Rodgers, whether this year or in the future. I think they need to draft a young QB fairly high so they have a fall back option if the QB they have whether its Love or someone else, they are preparing just incase plan A doesn't work.
Now if they were to move on from Love, I think this year they need to draft a QB. Its good to draft a QB when you don't need one, then trying to find one when you need one.
T7Steve
March 06, 2023 at 07:41 am
They should always draft a QB. If a good one falls to them early, ok. Don't need to reach for one with all the other holes they should fill.
PackyCheese500
March 06, 2023 at 07:46 am
What I would do is I would give Love 3-4 years and if he isn't working out then we draft a QB. There is no reason to put unnecessary pressure on him by taking a QB early. It doesn't make sense considering how many other needs we have.
Gutey has hinted about taking one on day 3. I think he probably will
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 08:00 am
I think drafting a QB high the year Rodgers is done in GB is smart. They did the same thing in 2008 when Favre retired. They drafted Brian Brohm, which I have to say maybe the worst pick in Ted Thompsons career.
However, if drafting Brohm, made Rodgers into the player he is now at all, then it was his 2nd best pick ever (Drafting Rodgers is number 1).
If the script is the same as when when the Favre/Rodgers thing happened, then this would be the year that Rodgers is out of GB, and they use a 2nd round pick on a QB. Maybe an additional 7th round pick on one as well.
I think that would be the right move.
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 08:21 am
Brohm just reminds us that one can’t be certain till it’s real and sustained and that TT knew that despite his hopes for Rodgers. Rodgers showed us that even true talent needs a season starting to fully develop and Favre reminded us that great play has a finite lifespan. Flynn should remind us not to put all our back up eggs in one basket as well.
croatpackfan
March 06, 2023 at 08:38 am
Coldworld, Taylor Heinecke said on direct question, asked him will he be willing to go to Green Bay if there will be opportunity, that he will be very happy. Reporter asked him that he would probably be back up QB, no matter who will be Packers QB and he said clearly that the back up QB is the best job in football.
I would suggest Packers to explore that option if he will come for acceptable price.
Racingdad
March 06, 2023 at 08:47 am
I was thinking the exact same about Heineke he would be a great backup for j love and not cost any draft capitol
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 09:00 am
I have a sneaking suspicion that they like Etling more than most think. That said, it depends on the amount of cap Heineke would want. In our particular position, a young prospect does not eat a chunk of the size a non minimum vet would and has potential upside if he develops. Had we less if a cap squeeze, then I’d agree, but what we have may be better employed at other positions.
Racingdad
March 06, 2023 at 09:31 am
Good point I guess I forgot about the cap hit I’ll add I think there are some qbs late in draft that would be good prospects as backups I was just thinking of saving the draft pick for other positions a couple of names late in draft. Tune, bagent,the kid from fordham plus a couple others but that said I think you are correct on Danny etling I watched him live in preseason and he looked like a decent backup
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 09:12 am
Brohm just reminds us that TT wasn't perfect and certainly made his share of stupid mistakes... (I will forego recounting all the stupid mistakes...) SMH
If we're lucky enough to trade AR12 away for some decent draft capital, we'll have more bites at the apple, and with us having 4 or 5 7th round picks, it wouldn't surprise me if they drafted a Stetson Bennett or Max Duggan if they were still around in the 7th.
In fact, I would hope Gutey would.
My biggest fear, Gutey sets his sights on a guy, (like he seems to do often), decides he needs to move up to get him, wastes draft capital to move up in the 3rd round for a backup QB... (That would really piss me off.)
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 09:51 am
Yes, Brohm the player was a bad pick, perhaps TT’s worst. I was more referring to the taking of a well rated prospect that year in the second round, as opposed to how he turned out. Flynn was one of his better finds though (and looked the better of the two from the first public practice).
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 12:46 pm
I remember guys at Bleacher Report projecting Brohm would unseat Rodgers as our franchise QB... I remember the tool from ESPN also saying such nonsense.
Brock Purdy is the poster boy for taking a guy in the 7th round to develop and I hope Gutey uses one of our 7th rounders for such a guy. I just don't want him to move up or draft a guy in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th rounds... ; )
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 12:52 pm
In my view, it depends what you want. A second rounder would suggest a player that is hoped could start this year if he had to. I suggest the odds on that being successful in reality aren’t good anyway. If the goal is longer term, then later in the draft makes sense if there’s talent to be developed. Honestly, I could see them drafting late to develop, keeping Etling or another cheap vet and actually using him If Love couldn’t start due to injury initially, as was the approach in Love’s first year.
If I recall, it wasn’t just the Bleacher Report. I think Todd McShay and Merrill Hoge were vocal in their certainty during the draft live coverage.
… found the quote:
Hoge: “Well, actually I do like Brohm better than Rodgers,” … “Packers take Brohm.” McShay then commented: “I honestly think Brian Brohm two years from now could be the starting quarterback of the Green Bay Packers. It would not shock me at all. I still think Aaron Rodgers has a chance as well, but I think Brian Brohm’s upside is greater than that of Aaron Rodgers.”
PackyCheese500
March 06, 2023 at 07:45 am
I know the Jets won't be drafting a QB. First of all, all the QBs will be gone by their pick. Secondly, drafting a rookie QB wouldn't lend itself to the Jets' roster. They have built their roster and are ready to win now. They don't want to risk enduring any rookie struggles for the next 1-2 years because they're ready to win now. That's why they're going the veteran route.
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 09:16 am
"That's why they're going the veteran route."
I think the Jets will wait to see what AR12's going to do and if they can't get Rodgers, it will be David Carr or Jimmy G or maybe even Lamar Jackson, depending on how they tag Jackson...
dobber
March 06, 2023 at 09:28 am
https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/03/saints-to-sign-derek-carr
For those thinking 12 trade, this was the key domino.
Racingdad
March 06, 2023 at 09:42 am
No new Carr in ny !! It’s 13 AND 43 plus players now !!
dobber
March 06, 2023 at 12:39 pm
If I'm making this deal, I don't want players. Players eat up cap and capital.
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 12:51 pm
^THIS! I want their #13, #38, this year, 2nd rounder next year, and their 1st rounder in '25...
; )
Just in case Love isn't our answer, we have enough draft capital in '25 to grab a guy! Lol
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 08:27 am
The combine isn’t a great guide to QB play. The throwing shows arm nothing more and, athleticism is helpful but not determinative. There will be a buzz and fan excitement, but I’d be surprised if there’s a whole lot of change from teams looking for a start now guy. For a team looking for a hedge to develop, maybe, or a guy who can come in and run some specific plays along Saints lines, if any want that.
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 12:55 pm
There are at least two GMs salivating right now and ready to draft Anthony Richardson after his combine performance. Not saying they're right or wrong, but you know they're now convinced he's their guy...
Someone will move up to draft him for sure.
dobber
March 06, 2023 at 09:22 am
"following the good showings by several QBs at the combine, I actually expect Rodgers to stay in GB this year"
Most GMs will have made their decisions based on game film. Maybe injury reports and interviews might have an impact, but throwing against air won't change much. Some will talk up the Combine because it helps their position and overall options.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 06, 2023 at 09:42 am
RC,
In football (sports in general) one of the most valuable qualities that one needs even though you cannot measure is 'anticipation.' It is one of the most important qualities one can have vs being a reactive player (think AJ Hawk vs say Woodson). When you are good at anticipation you also have to take risks. Gutey saw the opportunity and drafted Love with anticipation he would become very good.
Unlike most here at CCTV I have not had much doubt about Jordan Love. Since drafted he always was destined to be a good player. The only real question is just how good? I am convinced many fans are going to be surprised just how good he is going to be. My personal belief is the Packer offense will not take a step backwards in 2023 with Love at the helm vs with Rodgers starting in 2022 should Love play all 17 games. In fact, I expect an improvement overall in yardage, points, etc. While Love's performance in 2023 will have quite a bit of ebb & flow of good & bad (interceptions & fumbles) as he settles down & gains experience the end result is going to be very positive.
Bold statement? Don't think so! RC, please note this is not geared at you....but one of the problems I see with many here at CCTV is everyone wants guarantee about a player. Well, if the player (maybe pre-draft), or he doesn't have game experience like Jordan Love you need to trust your conviction & be able to anticipate what is needed to help ensure Jordan is successful. Gutey brought Love to us and has been instrumental is getting him prepared to takeover at QB. In this draft Gutey knows he now needs to draft the offensive players to help Love become successful. I wholeheartedly believe top draft capital is needed to surround Jordan Love to help him be successful. I am confident Gutey will bring a quality WR, TE, and a quality lineman (likely OT) on day 1-2.
Of course as in all things leading up to the draft it is hard to predict anything without mentioning Rodgers & knowing how this plays out. My prediction if Rodgers is gone & a high draft choice is received in 2023 look for a WR/TE in round 1. Look for one, or two of the following players:
Dalton Kincaid
Quentin Johnston
Luke Musgrave
Darnell Washington
There are not a lot of top quality WR's in this draft, so look for one high. The exception is whether they take Dalton with their first pick. He is special!
I whole-heartedly agree the Packers need a quality back-up QB if Rodgers goes. With the cap issues they have any help likely needs to come thru the draft unless a QB like Zach Wilson is included in on the deal.
Racingdad
March 06, 2023 at 09:45 am
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 06, 2023 at 09:49 am
Thanks Racingdad!
T7Steve
March 06, 2023 at 10:53 am
" While Love's performance in 2023 will have quite a bit of ebb & flow of good & bad (interceptions & fumbles)"
So, you're saying he'll play better than Rodgers did last year.
Rodgers had a rough year last year. At his age, what are the chances he'll stay healthy and have a better year this year if he's still on the team? 40-60%?
PackEyedOptimist
March 06, 2023 at 07:09 am
So, I see Love as an average-to-above-average starter. That's good enough to make the playoffs, IF the rest of your team's roster is ALSO above (to well-above) average.
Can the Packers ROSTER (not just QB) be well-above average?
Ignoring injuries, which can affect ANY team, how is our roster (ignoring QB)?
In my opinion:
OL: Assuming we resign Bakhtiari, the current OL roster is above average.
WR: Watson = above average, the rest... I have no real faith in Doubs, so below average.
RB: Above average (but a young RB from this excellent draft class would help)
TE: Even if we sign Tonyan, below average. NEED a quality starter
DL: Below average, but if Clark rebounds and Wyatt grows, maybe average.
ED: Smith/Gary/Enagbare = Average
ILB: Above average
CB: Average to Above average
S: Looks to be AWFUL currently
So, this draft and free agency would need to hit it BIG to surround Love with enough talent to make a deep playoff run. Fortunately, this draft has a LOT of potential big-time talents; unfortunately, every other team will also be drafting from it.
IF the Packers can pick up a good starting TE (after the combine I now have Darnell Washington and Sam LaPorta as my 1-2), and pick up at least two average-or-better safeties, the roster becomes AVERAGE. They'd need to ALSO get a starting DL, good Edge and another very good WR to become an "Above average" roster in my opinion.
Doable? Yes. Likely? Mmmmmmm....
Oh yeah...that ignores the coaching...
PackEyedOptimist
March 06, 2023 at 07:34 am
So my approach would be to add at least one decent free agent safety, and hope that out of Savage/Amos/Ford/Douglas there is a second one. Then draft a safety when one is BPA.
Then, in the draft, my first hope would be to trade down from 15 for maybe two seconds, or equivalent. I don't think any team will do that, so we're probably stuck with 15.
At 15, take a top TE, or ED, or DL (or CB if you really believe Douglas can be a good safety)
At 45, same approach, minus the position picked at 15.
At 78, I think it's the spot to take the best WR still available; if all the good-enough are gone, it's back to the missing piece of the original TE/ED/DL
From 113 to the end, BPA.
Personally, I love the idea of BPA at every selection, but the above would be my approach if I am running with Rodgers again this year.
A second option would be to use 15 and 45 on a TE and WR in the hopes that the offense, with Rodgers, could keep us in every game.
Racingdad
March 06, 2023 at 08:54 am
I’m not sure Rodgers would use new wrs or Te’s at least not right away if it’s loves team absolutly draft wrs and te’s that can grow with him
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 09:05 am
I’d love Washington. But I’m just as curious to see how LaFleur would use him. We blame Rodgers, but I’m not so sure that’s all on him. I have never seen LaFleur really make that position a centerpiece. Who is the obstacle here? Would he simply use Washington to block? Would he use him in the red zone like Tonyan in 2020? He might see the field as a blocker, but that’s not using the potential I see fully or widely enough to justify the first round pick I think it now takes. Conversely, if we lose Lazard, does a TE role expand significantly?
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 10:28 am
If we lose Lazard, they might try for a guy like Elijah Higgins...
Higgins ran 1/100th faster in the 40. He's heavier than Lazard, bigger hands, but two inches shorter at 6' 3" -- If in fact they want a WR who can play the Lazard roll, Higgins is a reasonable comp...
Using Washington to only block, would be like owning a Lambo and never putting it in "Top Gear!" (Which would be stupid, so maybe?)
Washington would be wicked in the right situation. This TE class is fairly deep, so if we miss on Washington, maybe we get someone else who can also be wicked in the right situation? I just don't know if MaLF's offense is the right situation?
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 10:51 am
Yes, Higgins and a few others are potential direct replacements for Tonyan. That’s certainly one way we could go. But your point on the use of Washington is essentially the same as mine. Not knowing whether the answer to how we’ve used TEs is purely talent or the attitude of Rodgers, LaFleur or both complicates knowing whether an early round pick is justified.
I agree that there are other good TEs available who could be partial solutions, especially if Lewis returns or we pick up a blocking specialist, but again the question of importance in this offense remains as to how we value them and what we might expect from them.
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 01:10 pm
The sure fire way to know how important TEs are to MaLF's offense is to wait and see what Gutey does in the draft.
Since Aaron Rodgers was drafted:
2006: Zero TEs
2007: Clark Harris 243 overall in the 7th round
2008: Jermichael Finley 91st overall in the 3rd round
2009: Zero TEs
2010: Andrew Quarless 154th overall in the 5th round
2011: DJ Williams 141 overall in the 5th round - Ryan Taylor 218th overall in the 7th
2012: Zero TEs
2013: Zero TEs
2014: Richard Rodgers 98th overall in the 3rd round (should've went in the 5th, IMO)
2015: Kennard Backman 213th overall in the 6th round
2016: Zero TEs
2017: Zero TEs
2018: Zero TEs
2019: Jace %'in Sternberger 75th overall in the 3rd round (Total Bust)
2020: Josiah Deguara 94th overall in the 3rd round (should've went in the 5th, IMO)
2021: Zero TEs
2022: Zero TEs
Might be the worst drafting in the history of the TE position...
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 01:31 pm
IDK what MaLF's philosophy regarding the TE position is, but he better hope Gutey starts doing a better %'in job drafting TEs, if in fact the TE position is important to his offense...
I keep looking at the list above and find it difficult to believe they could do a worse job drafting TEs if they actually tried...
Everyone always points to Finley and his unreached potential and injury. He was as frustrating as any Packer drafted in the last two decades. He was just about ready to reach his potential when he was injured. Sad, but shit happens...
Do better Gutey!
jannesbjornson
March 06, 2023 at 01:42 pm
No TEs stocked in the depth chart and you end up with failures to convert on 3rd-4th and short.
PackyCheese500
March 06, 2023 at 04:14 pm
Deguara is technically a FB and not a true TE.
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 04:23 pm
Technically, he's been listed as a TE throughout his whole college career, at the combine, and for the Packers, so "technically", he's a TE.
Don't understand where you can say he's a FB, when he's barely lined up as a FB in his entire career? College or Pro...
PackyCheese500
March 06, 2023 at 04:13 pm
Tucker Kraft of SD St. is a guy I'm not hearing talked about enough. He possesses some great upside, too. Reminds me of George Kittle a lot. He may be the Christian Watson of this year's TEs.
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 04:26 pm
Lets hope he isn't the Jace %'in Sternberger of TEs... ; )
jannesbjornson
March 07, 2023 at 01:02 pm
The guy next to him in the Order was McLaurin. We were all screaming for the McLaurin during the blog.
I will never defend Gutedkunst as a GM.
jannesbjornson
March 07, 2023 at 01:00 pm
Kraft would be my target. Good open field runner. Has the bulk and attitude to grind on DEs.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 06, 2023 at 02:32 pm
CW,
Washington is such a conundrum. Loads of upside and talent but has receiving limitations down the field. Great in red zone & picking up short first downs. Where the heck will he finally end up going in the draft? Could see the Eagles taking him at #10 for Hurts running game.
Would love to see him on the Pack with a 'second' first round pick. The Packers need a big physical receiver who can win at high point and contested catches down the field. A WR like Quentin Johnston, or a TE in name only like Dalton Kincaid. We all saw how Detroit sandwiched and shut down Watson defensively. The Pack NEEDS another offensive threat and one who can help keep the defense honest. Either Johnston, or Kincaid could do that. Might Washinton be available with a 2nd Packers pick in round 1? Improve our blocking but be that athletic 6'7" 265 lb red zone killer?
Hoping!!!!
Leatherhead
March 06, 2023 at 03:59 pm
Everybody has limitations, but on the majority of the plays he'll be a blocker, not a receiver, and this guy will get his man blocked.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 06, 2023 at 08:13 pm
Totally agree LH!
What a physical specimen. Where will he eventually be drafted. I'm sure that is one of the very big questions in 32 front offices right now.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 06, 2023 at 08:10 pm
Are we assuming Rodgers can beat Love out? If the FO is truly disgusted with AR like being stated on several fronts now & Rodgers chooses to come back does that automatically mean Rodgers would start? Now that would really be interesting should that scenario arise.
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 09:12 pm
Well, yeah, he would start, because MaLF sure doesn't have the guts to bench a future Hall of Famer. He didn't even have enough guts to make him run his offense...
AR12 probably makes him raise his hand to speak... SMH
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 07, 2023 at 09:39 am
True!
T7Steve
March 06, 2023 at 07:49 am
Don't worry about coaching. The front office doesn't. Seems the head coach doesn't either.
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 01:13 pm
LMM%'inAO...
^This made my day!
TY T7Steve...
T7Steve
March 06, 2023 at 04:11 pm
I'm glad. I tend to get a little too sarcastic at times.
I wish it was just a joke instead of sad reality.
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 04:27 pm
LMAO...
Me too, on both counts...
Packer_Fan
March 06, 2023 at 07:14 am
I agree. The Pack could have a better record next year than last year. Key factors: How much veteran free agent help they sign. How well the added draft picks perform this year. And the biggest thing is how good the coaches can help the players. One for the offense and if Barry can get the defense to play better as a unit. This last item I have the least confidence in.
And with the added draft picks, here are the first five picks: DL, Edge, WR, TE & S
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 08:31 am
It’s interesting that you have less confidence in the DC than the OC. I’m not a Barry supporter, but the offensive scheme design, planning and output was as poor if not more so in my opinion.
T7Steve
March 06, 2023 at 09:08 am
Definitely would choose to score more touchdowns in the red zone. Don't know if they coached bad, if it was execution, or the personnel choices. Of course, that's really all on coaching too.
croatpackfan
March 06, 2023 at 07:17 am
Ken, I lost all confidence in capabilities of ACR after that loss vs Bucs in NFCCG at Lambeau. People said ACR never had good D? Lets talk about 2014 season NFCCG when Packers D and Packers ST made 8 (EIGHT) turnovers and pinpoint Packers 5 times inside 15 yard from red zone. Result? 22 points. 1 TD, 1 INT, 3 FG, 1 TO on downs and 2 FG from ~40 yards or less. 2019 season NFCCG was obvious that 49ers were better team. But 2020 NFCCG second half there was 3 INT made by Packers D and at least 3 Bucs punt. 6 possesion to Packers offense gifted from Packers D. How many chances should "generational talent" needed to be able to win the game? I'm not certain that if Packers had shut down D that would help. Well, we saw 2021 NFCCG that Packers D shut down 49ers offense (only their TD came from ST mistake). Packers D gave fuc*ing 6 points to 49ers. What "generational talent" was able to do leading Packers offense? 1 TD and 1 FG for the whole game at home.
I may be wrong, but I trully believe Jordan Love is the next pro bowler and next excellent QB for Packers. I watched several analyses of Jordan Love plays from college, his 1st start at KC and his game vs Philly. There was lot to improve from his college tape, but different analysts got the same conclusion. Jordan Love can excell at NFL QB level.
Do I need to say more?
On the other hand Packers will lose some audience attention if they get rid of ACR, there is no doubt. But it is not about 2023. It is about much longer future of Packers franchise. Fans need hope, need something to be excited about. I trully believe thry have that with Jordan Love.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 07:51 am
"But 2020 NFCCG second half there was 3 INT made by Packers D and at least 3 Bucs punt. 6 possesion to Packers offense gifted from Packers D. How many chances should "generational talent" needed to be able to win the game?"
I just saw a perfect highlight film of this game on twitter the other day.
Rodgers on that day finished 33 of 48 for 346 yards, 3 TD's 1 Interception. Rating of 101.6. Brady on that day finished 20 of 36 for 280 yards, 3 TD's 3 Interceptions. Rating of 73.8.
Packers have the ball with 2:10 left in the 2nd quarter. Packers move the ball. With 34 seconds left he throws to Lazard and it was intercepted at TB's 49. This was the play that changed the game. Instead of what should have been a DPI or holding or whatever, Bucs get the ball with 28 seconds left. It becomes 4th and 4 at the 45 yards line with 13 seconds left. Brady hits Miller for a 39 yard TD to go up 21-10 at halftime. Then to start the 3rd quarter Packers get the ball. 3rd down and 5 and Jones fumbles the ball. 1 play later Bucs score a TD going up 28-10.
In that game Jones had 2 fumbles. They only lost 1, but that was a big turnover. Both turnovers cost the Packers 14 points.
Rodgers wasn't perfect in this game. But he was good enough that they should have won. The loss in this game is not all on Rodgers. First they made the decision to put Turner at LT and Wagner at RT. That didn't work well. There is no legit reason the Packers should have given up a TD at the end of the half, after Rodgers interception that shouldn't have been.
Packers defense gave up 31 points in this game. 14 points from the end of the first half to the start of the 2nd half. That was essentially the difference in this game.
croatpackfan
March 06, 2023 at 08:10 am
There is no excuses for ACR shortcomings. You can searching for justifications, but there was no. He had ball in his hand 3 times 7 yards from end zone. He had several opportunity on each play. What he did? He threw 3× to doble or triple covered Davante Adams, while he had open player to score.
Justify that, please.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 09:06 am
He should have ran that one in, or at least tried to run as far as he could have.
But if you are basing the entire game on 1 drive, then essentially you are saying what happened in the rest of the game was meaningless. On the previous TD drive he had EQ open for the 2 point conversion and he flat out dropped it. Do you believe that drop was in the back of Rodgers mind when they were going for the TD? I believe it was in the back of his mind. Had EQ caught that, does that change the way that final drive goes for GB? They would be down by 6 rather then 8. But being down by 8 they would still have to get the 2 point conversion to tie it up.
I get it. You hate Rodgers. Many people on this page hates Rodgers. Which I don't really care if anyone loves or hates him. But its clouding peoples judgments. Lets face the reality. The QB is not the only person to win/lose games. This is a team game. Where was the defense after that drive? They just needed to get a stop right? No, Kevin King draws the DPI extending the drive. They still have one more chance and the defense gives up another 3rd down play ending the game.
I already explained what happened in other parts of the game.
Since'61
March 06, 2023 at 09:30 am
Excellent post and summary RC. I agree completely. Once the Packers were down 28-10 after the Jones fumble to begin the 2nd half the Tampa defense took over the game specifically their DL versus our OL. The Packers allowed 6 sacks in that game. No QB can be expected to play well when they are running for their life on nearly play.
The other false narrative is that Rodgers did not play well enough to win the 2014 NFCCG. But the posters who complain about his play in the game never mention that Rodgers played that game on one leg. If Rodgers was healthy for that game he would have run for a few more first downs on a few drives in that game. That is critical because if Rodgers was able to extend drives with his legs the Packers may have scored more points ad more importantly taken more time off the clock. But posters become blinded by the necessity to blame everything on the QB rather than actually paying attention to the reality happening on the field. Even more important than Rodgers no one ever mentions the Eddie Lacey disappeared in that game especially in the early go to go situations. Also remember that Seattle was playing at home as defending SB champs and with the league's #1 defense. Thanks, Since '61
MainePackFan
March 06, 2023 at 09:59 am
Spot on "61. Another thing forgotten about the 2014 NFCCG is after the defense and ST's fell apart, Rodgers drove them down the field for a game tying FG to get them to OT.
MainePackFan
March 06, 2023 at 11:07 am
When someone downvotes an undeniable fact, one can ascertain that whoever cast that downvote has a clouded perspective and can't accept reality : )
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 12:46 pm
Very few facts are undeniable, especially in a context as multifaceted as a football game and one subsequently seen through the imperfect lens of memory.
Since'61
March 06, 2023 at 01:12 pm
Coldworld you are correct and I agree with your post. However when someone posts inaccurate statements that skew the narrative to their personal opinion that is first unfair to the player(s) and second unfair to all the other posters here at CHTV. The Packers did not have one possession in the Seattle game that started inside the Seattle 15 yard line. The best starting position that the Packers had was at the Seattle 19 yard line. Let's get the facts straight and state them accurately.
The Packers also had possessions that started at the Seattle 23 and 33 yards lines. The Packers had 5 picks and one fumble recovery in the game. Yes. 8we can agree that the Packers should have scored more points but as I've posted before if I told anyone that the Packers would go on the road to Seattle with an injured Aaron Rodgers and have a 16-0 halftime lead and/0r that the Packers would have a 12 point lead with less than 4 minutes to play everyone would have signed up for that with no questions asked. The other never mentioned point is that the Packers defense allowed 3 consecutive TDs on Seattle's final 3 possessions of the game. How is that Rodger's fault? Especially since he was playing the game on one leg.
These are ridiculous assertions based on emotional responses to disappointing loss that is being used to justify getting rid of a HOF player. I have no problem moving on from Rodgers and have posted the same but it's really unnecessary, inaccurate and unfair to blame any single player for losing some the games that the Packers have lost during Rodgers career.
I also do not support the narrative that because the Packers did not move the ball out of their own territory as an excuse for the STs to have a punt blocked and returned for a TD. That is ridiculous in the extreme. given the way our defense played against the 49ers in that 2021 playoff game if our punt team executed the punt there is no way the 49ers drive for a TD against our defense. They had done nothing all day. It's unacceptable to me that Rodger's or any player is blamed for the punt team having their punt blocked. They failed to execute the only job they have and it cost the Packers the game. Yes we all expect/hope for the Packers to score more points but that is why it is a team game. Suck it up, do your job and pick up the offense the way Rodgers and the offense picked up the rest of the team for essentially his entire career. It's like the rest of team decides that since Rodgers is not playing well let's just fall apart and give up easy TDs by the defense or let's get our kicks blocked by the ST. It looks like it is actually part of the game plan the way it plays out. Sorry wrong and unacceptable. End of story, Cased closed. Thanks, Since '61
MainePackFan
March 06, 2023 at 02:02 pm
Great Post '61.
Packerpasty
March 06, 2023 at 03:36 pm
Once again, excellent post...just the facts...thanks..
MainePackFan
March 06, 2023 at 02:07 pm
You are correct about the lens of memory, so I looked it up.
It's undeniable that the Packers were down by 3 on their own 22 with 1:19 left. The QB for the Packers completed 3 passes for 36 yards and had one run for 12 yards. Crosby made a FG with 19 seconds left to tie the game and send it to overtime.
I left out the QB's name so no one could deny it was a comeback led by the QB for the Packers. Which of those facts are deniable?
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 10:05 am
Thanks 61.
The OL was not good that day. They struggled a lot. I completely believe that if Bakhtiari doesn't get hurt and plays that game, they win that game.
The play to me that was inexcusable was the TD before half time. The only thing you can't allow there is a TD, and they allowed it to happen. You give that team all the momentum going into half time. That just changed the game.
2014, there were so many things that happened in that game. Something that doesn't get talked about a lot either was on the first drive of the game when Rodgers throws the interception in the redzone was that the DL jumped offsides and it wasn't called. It should have been 3rd and 5 (in field goal range), instead of a turnover. That was a small thing that changed the game, that many don't talk about.
But back to the Point of QB's getting too much credit. That year after the Patriots win the Super Bowl, immediately afterwards I heard non stop how Brady was the best QB in history because he won them another super bowl. But the funny part about that was, that the game was won when he was on the sidelines. He won the game by Seattle's decision to not hand the ball off to Lynch, and to throw it at the goal line.
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 11:20 am
Duplicate
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 11:20 am
I find myself somewhere between these explanations. I think many facets were culpable and all share the blame. Why point that out? Because I think the driving problem wasn’t the players but the offensive and defensive game plan and coaching. That matters because we still face that problem regardless of who is QB.
I remain firmly of the opinion that the coaches let the players down that day, and put them in a position that set them
up for what you all describe. The antithesis of good coaching, if you like. I think that is true of both ‘20 and ‘21. To me that argues to move away from the Rodgers centric analysis that both ends if the spectrum rely on.
One can, as I do, believe that we must move on from Rodgers without believing it’s his fault primarily that the trophy cupboard remains empty. Part of my reasoning is that until we do, we are not going to address the root causes. The focus of current discussions tends to lend weight to that. Arguing about why we failed in the past is pointless if the true cause is absent from the discussions. I believe that it is.
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 11:20 am
Sorry, connection glitching in triplicate
MainePackFan
March 06, 2023 at 06:19 pm
lol. I thought you were working extra hard to make a point :)
JohnnyLogan
March 06, 2023 at 11:40 am
So much of this could have been prevented with one little do-over. T.J. Watt instead of Kevin King. One of the most obvious draft picks in history (I know, we needed a CB) but Watt wishing, wanting, and waiting to be a Packer, while Thompson waffled then whiffed, changed the course of Packer history. There are a thousand mistakes made in drafting, but this one riles me more than most.
Since'61
March 06, 2023 at 01:32 pm
RC you are correct. The game became a comedy of errors especially by the STs and the defense at the end of the game. Your point about the missed off sides call is an excellent point and as you correctly mention is frequently over looked. But it is deliberately overlooked because it does not support the narrative of blaming Rodgers for the loss. Yes, Rodgers could have played better. But how much better on one leg. How much better thatn a 12 point lead with less tha4 minutes to play on the road, in wet weather, on one leg against the league's #1 defense and defending SB champions? If the Packers were leading 39-27 instead of 19-7 when the defensive collapse began would the loss still be Rodgers fault? They lost a 12 point lead and the defense allowed 3 consecutive TD drives. The Packers had a 99.99% chance of wining the game at that point. Championship teams don't allow that to happen regardless of how the offense has played to that point.
As for the following SB, Seattle and their HC gave that game away to the Patriots. They had no excuse not to use Lynch and not only that they went 5 wide on the play so there didn't even leave the possibility that it could be a running play. Stupid football and outsmarted themselves. Thanks, Since '61
jannesbjornson
March 06, 2023 at 10:06 am
Without Bhak holding the blindside and a retread at RT, the O line couldn't hold the position. Every play matters. History is a beach. RC condensed the turning points: King's blown coverage and an immediate TO from A.Jones. A 14 point differential is difficult to overcome in any game, much less a Playoff scenario. 2020 should have been a walk to the SB. Rodgers brought them back. It is in the box score. Deflection and finding the scapegoat seems to have permeated society, even among the Fans.
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 11:33 am
Not going with the personnel that got them there was the major cause of the OL mess. I can’t think of one player it did not seem to reduce. Truly questionable coaching and an almost unheard of gamble.
jannesbjornson
March 06, 2023 at 10:13 am
Another point to consider was McCarthy playing for Field Goals. They dominated the first half, but settled for 3s.
barutanseijin
March 06, 2023 at 03:13 pm
Rodgers had a passer rating of 55 or so in the Seattle game. He sucked and deserves _more_ blame than any backup TE/special teamer.
MainePackFan
March 06, 2023 at 06:32 pm
and the winning QB Russell Wilson had a 44 passer rating with 4 Int's. What's your point?
No need to bring up such silly nonsense as not recovering an onside kick that would have sealed the victory that would get you to the Super Bowl. Certainly not when you have an opportunity join the cool kids and dump on Rodgers.
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 09:37 am
I see this as a difference over what the future Rodgers is likely to be, combined with a general assessment of both the coaching staff and the capability of this roster to improve organically.
You have one stance, more optimistic on Rodgers level of play and it’s plausible longevity, more faith in this roster improving faster (i see advances and retreats largely offsetting this year, and the benefits being a year or two away, for example).
Those views argue for strongly different approaches and both lead to frustration at each other. What you see as unfair to Rodgers can be seen as debatable and was at the time, but it can also be seen as based in assumptions time has altered. Ultimately Croat doesn’t believe that a better season from Rodgers will be enough with this roster and cap and will burden our future at the same time. I think you can see how that prospect would frustrate him.
No matter how reasonable you or I try to be, we aren’t truly getting it in the eyes of the other. There are some here who are Rodgers only or never types. They are outliers. Having been through the last transition I have learned to discount their repeated fact free declarations of faith. There’s not only no changing them, there’s nothing debated with them. They simply don’t care about the same thing.
Based on last time, the acrimony wont go away. If Rodgers goes his pure fans will still come back to gloat if they can. I remember that the first 9 games Favre played for the Jets. If Love bombs there will be endless told-you-so posts. If Rodgers stays, absent a Super Bowl, it’s just going to brew constantly, in season if things go badly, after if he’s deciding what to do as well.
Ultimately, we can’t change this. The Packers have to make their bed or him refuse to. We just have to recognize tolerate genuine Packer fan’s views and weed out those who aren’t and discount them. That starts with accepting that we don’t all share the same views as to why we haven’t reached the Super Bowl recently and what it will take to do so. Very little of that is hatred of Rodgers. In fact many who have been accused of that have openly stated that the real issue is off the field many times. That too sends others into a frenzy. Personally I find that much more baffling, but there you go.
Let’s hope that we get a clear direction established earlier and then, like it or not, at least get a basis for talking about what is needed with that critical aspect at least resolved for now. Not only might that be a little less divisive, but a lot more interesting. Probably a vain hope given how grating it was during the Favre/Rodgers transitional years. Right now we are just in an indefinite holding pattern all desperate to land.
MainePackFan
March 06, 2023 at 10:29 am
"There are some here who are Rodgers only or never types. They are outliers."
This is very true CW. Unfortunately the extremes are what leads to the divisive nature of the AR discussions. I do believe it is the "hate Rodgers" outlier that leads to much of the vitriol. There are very few "Rodgers only" posters in here. Most responses are reactionary.
I believe that the majority in here can at least see both sides of the argument rationally, regardless of whether we agree with each other's preferred path forward.
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 11:07 am
I think generally, it is outliers on both sides that cause frustration and gradually raise the temperature. Of course, in our individual cases, it depends on where we stand as to which grates most.
One thing I will say that I remember from last time is that the wild cards were a few passionate Favre fans who presumably weren’t packers fans as they went with him except to needle, although some returned over time.
crayzpackfan
March 06, 2023 at 01:39 pm
Cold - I truly do not care if it is Love or AR this coming year. I just don't like the AR contract. MM sold his soul that day. I want AR out "only" because I don't see his play and level of leadership living up to his pay scale. It's really that simple for me. I don't like large credit card bills. I especially would hate to be paying something off that's now sitting in a landfill somewhere.
SicSemperTyrannis
March 06, 2023 at 11:14 am
I agree with all that. First, I don't see AR12 as washed up. Not sleeping for weeks due to a rib injury causes exactly the sort of things we saw. He downplayed his broken thumb which was the right thing to do, but we saw that have a greater impact on his throwing, too.
I would have loved to have seen Love rest AR around the bye and AR finish the season healthier, we certainly saw a few plays that set his thumb back. This is only one of many issues with coach MFL.
Second, AR's contract is designed specifically to have him be a Packer for his entire career. People seem to be forgetting that. The choice between AR12 and JL10? We're spoiled. How many teams would like to have that "problem?"
croatpackfan
March 06, 2023 at 09:40 am
So, one mistake, like Bostick did was main cause to lost 2014 NFCCG, but 3 mistakes ACR did is nothing. Or, one ST mistake in 2021 DRG is cause for loss vs 49ers, but not the ugly game played by ACR.
That is interesting measures to apply.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 10:07 am
IF Bostick does his job and blocks, which then allows Nelson to do his job, and catches the ball, they win the game. The reason why Bostick gets so much hate was because that was the play that would have sent GB to the Super Bowl, if he just did his responsibility.
That wasn't the only reason why they lost, but that was the final one.
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 10:39 am
"... if he just did his responsibility."
Poor coaching. Period.
His job was to block. He didn't block. Either the coaching was poor, or he went rogue and did it on his own. If coaches actually held players accountable, it probably wouldn't have happened. SSMH
croatpackfan
March 06, 2023 at 10:47 am
If ACR did his job and scored at least another TD in those 5 possession in the first half that started inside 15 yards of the red zone, Bostick would not have to make the mistake for Packers to lose that game. Do you see cause and effect relationship here?
If ACR throw the ball to open either Allen Lazard or ESQ on the last Packers position vs 49ers nobody would make so much noise of that TD scored by big ST mistake caused TD. Do you see cause and effect relationship here?
If ACR throw the ball to widely open Allen Lazard at the end of that NFCCG vs Bucs Packers would be in much more better position to win that game! Do you see cause and effect relationship here?
Nothing is in isolation, but when you start to find common cause, you find the right cause of losses. It is interesting that lack of ability to score important TDs at the crucial moments of those games makes that common denominator (ACR) the only realistic reason for losses. Not to mention that inability to score TD in the red zone of that Seattle debacle was start of changing momentum little by little towards Seattle side. They were able to see themselves making come back. 20 or 21 to zero, instead of 16 to 0 at the end of the first half would be also useful, don't you think?
Coming back from that 28-10 in 2020 NFCCG was moving momentum to Packers side, but fail to score TD at the last possession of that game change momentum immediately towards your opponent.
Forcing that ball on triple covered Davante Adams change the momentum at that 49ers game even more than that 7 points they got from ST blocked punt (btw, who was the one who buried punt unit deep in Packers territory so that punter needed to receive snap in the end zone and have short field to punt the ball? I do not think it was D or ST mistake. I believe that was Packers offense inability to move the ball out of their red zone before gave the ball by punting. Who was QB on that possession that preceded blocked punt. Somehow I remember it was ACR! Isn't it?
jannesbjornson
March 06, 2023 at 01:54 pm
Redmond dropped the easy INT, prior to the King FU. Another momentum changing play that seemingly is set in fog, while the witch hunt stacks the kindling.
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 11:38 am
What I find interesting that comment is that it prompts the following question.
Which was a more inexcusable coaching error?
Or
Bostick out there on the hands team or Drayton still coaching STs in the last Championship game?
One could also ask which was the most foreseeable and which
Truly the most significant reason for the loss?
croatpackfan
March 06, 2023 at 12:09 pm
Well, we have Bostick and ST. What about 2020 NFCCG? Who was there sacrificial lamb? Oh, I forgot - Kevin King! Wow! Always somebody else... Still, who played all those games?
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 12:48 pm
So basically what you are saying, is that every loss by the Packers since 2008 is to be blamed on Rodgers?
Since nothing else seems to matter.
croatpackfan
March 06, 2023 at 01:11 pm
No, I did not say that every loss are on ACR. I already stated that2012 & 2013 season loss to 49ers, 2015 loss to Arizona, 2016 Falcons Packers were decimated by injuries. So, teams all together were not good enough in those seasons. Also, 2011 season WCG loss to Giants I can clearly attribute to dreadful defense.
But 2014, 2020, 2021 Packers D played perfect football. But there was nobody on offense to win those games. If you want to blame coaches, it is OK. Maybe they were. But than you have to accept how Packers success is also tied with them. Either there is QB who deserves all acolades for wins, so should be him to take all the critics for losses.
That is my position.
barutanseijin
March 06, 2023 at 03:48 pm
So what you are saying is that it’s never his fault even when he plays poorly. That is not rational analysis.
In the Super Bowl year, Rodgers played lights out after coming back from the concussion. Even when he didn’t, he did enough to keep them in the game. Both late season Bears games were really tough. His passing game was downright bad in the NFCCG but that shoestring tackle on Urlacher was a great play. It may have saved the game. Would full blown Diva version of Rodgers have made that tackle? I doubt it.
At any rate, the Super Bowl run is behind us along with thatversion of Rodgers. Post-Super Bowl Rodgers played well enough to win in the regular season and sometimes in the early rounds of the playoffs. He could never do enough in the NFCCG to win. To me this suggests he ranks somewhere in the all-time top 20, rather than at the very top. Others have decided that he is an all-time top 5 QB and therefore need to explain why he failed to win against the toughest competition. The usual move is to produce a scapegoat.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 06, 2023 at 02:36 pm
RC,
Good comment but I had to go back and re-read as AR hasn't thrown for 300 yards since the 2001 season. I see you had correctly indicated in 2020.
Guam
March 06, 2023 at 07:32 am
Interesting analysis by Ken Lass and it suggested to me that the overall TEAM is what drives the record, not just the quarterback. His sample included some of the best quarterbacks of all time (Brady and Brees) and yet the team records didn't change much when the QB changed. Given football is always touted as the ultimate team game (22 starters plus special teamers), I can't say I am surprised at the outcome of his analysis.
It also suggests the Packers don't have enough overall talent to get Aaron Rodgers to the Super Bowl in 2023 given their 2022 record. The fact that Rodgers had MVP seasons in 2020 and 2021 and couldn't get the team to the Super Bowl also speaks to the talent on the roster (and/or the coaching). Maybe it is time to focus more on the rest of the roster and less on the QB position.
croatpackfan
March 06, 2023 at 08:12 am
Another argument for cutting ties with ACR.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 09:33 am
"It also suggests the Packers don't have enough overall talent to get Aaron Rodgers to the Super Bowl in 2023 given their 2022 record."
It would suggest that if you purely looked at their record. But you need to look beyond that. Look at what happened in '22, and project to '23. This is where I think things look much better, then people want to give them credit.
Starting with RB's. Dillon struggled for the start of the year. At the end of the year he was much better.
WR's. They had 2 main rookies playing. They got better as the season went on. Doubs was emerging as our number 1 WR until he got hurt. He never was the same after. Watson came out of nowhere it seemed like and showed everyone why they traded up for him. These 2 guys are the core moving forward. They will only add to the position. And hopefully Torre takes a step, because I feel like he can be a good player.
TE is uncertain right now.
OL after moving players around improved significantly. And that to me is the biggest reason to be optimistic about next year. Our best teams have a great OL. And I think our OL will be great! Its no coincidence that Dillon looked better later in the year and the passing game became better. Its because the OL started playing well down the stretch.
The biggest reason for optimism in 23 is because of the 22 draft. Walker, Wyatt, Watson, Doubs, Tom, Enagbare all were key contributors. Carpenter was really good on special teams, and Toure did make some plays on offense. Walker is a guy to keep an eye on next year. This draft class was really good in year 1. I can't wait to see them in year 2.
SicSemperTyrannis
March 06, 2023 at 11:49 am
RC, no mention of Nixon? Plus, we have two O linemen at 6'9" who have never played a down; I can't peg that as the biggest coaching mistake only because there were so many, but on 3rd and short putting them both at guard and give the rock to Quadzilla is such a no brainer, instead of going for a 30 yard pass that just ends the series. If that worked a few times they could have had 11 wins, and if it failed you still have tape on them and can develop them.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 12:50 pm
Yeah, right now I don't know if Nixon will be back.
And I really like the other OL they brought in with Tenuta and Jones. But I was just talking about the draft picks.
Guam
March 06, 2023 at 12:36 pm
Are there reasons for optimism RC? Absolutely. Is this a Super Bowl roster? I think that might be a stretch. The uncertainties at WR, TE, safety and DL are significant and there are just not enough draft choices to plug all the holes nor is there cap room to do so. Could the Packers be a playoff team with Rodgers? Yes. A Super Bowl team? I don't see it.
And trust me, I am enough of a diehard Packer fan that I would vastly prefer you to be right. But the cynic/realist in me just can't buy into that much optimism.
RCPackerFan
March 06, 2023 at 01:02 pm
To be fair, who truly has a super bowl roster in March? No one!
You never know what players will be going where. You don't know who will be drafted. You don't know who of the draft picks will change teams. You never know what injuries will change teams.
There is so much to happen between now and the start of the season. Everyone should feel optimistic.
We have needs. But so do other teams. No team is perfect. What gives me hope is the young players taking a big step. Maybe I'm putting to much faith in that to happen. I just really feel good about it. And our OL. I feel very good about our OL.
dobber
March 06, 2023 at 09:39 am
Most of the QBs cited above were in regression and well past their primes at the time of the change. Just because a guy could light it up week-in-and-week-out 8 years ago (or even two years ago) doesn't mean he can do it now. When you lean on a franchise QB for a long time, the battle between loyalty, fan appeal, and objective assessment (esp. in the case of slow decline) becomes a problem.
It may be that when the change happens, the player being replaced just isn't that good or very far above replalcement anymore.
SicSemperTyrannis
March 06, 2023 at 11:56 am
Ideally, yes. With the two different injuries I think it's premature to assess AR12 as regressing. I think giving him til 3/15 is a reasonable time frame to let him self assess that point. I also look at his contract as designed to have him play his whole career with the Packers. I'd be surprised if he decides he prefers to play somewhere else. Even if he does, I'd suspect something behind the scenes influencing that.
Guam
March 06, 2023 at 12:49 pm
I am not so sure Brady was in decline, but agree with the other seven QBs. Had they declined so much that they had become a liability to their team? Not sure that was the case. They weren't what they used to be, but they were still average to decent QBs.
I would argue that having a great QB for a long time will have his team drafting at the back end of the draft for many years which will weaken the overall roster. The combined effect of a great QB in decline and a weakened roster leads to a team in decline. That is only reversed when there is a significant injection of new talent.
There won't be a significant injection of new talent unless Rodgers is traded.
ReaganRulz
March 06, 2023 at 07:46 am
Yes, in most circumstances a team needs a stellar QB to win it all. At the same time, if a team has a stellar defense this certainly helps cover the blemishes of the QB. Our defense needs to step it up based on the talent that is currently there. I don’t think Barry is the guy to get us there unfortunately, but hope that the defense can help make the transition to Love a little easier if that is what happens.
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 08:08 am
Just going through the combine and looking at what I had thought might happen. The result thus far is two loose impressions.
Firstly, I really don’t like the S class. That means FA prices likely go up if others agree. I don’t buy the argument that speed isn’t important given what Barry asks his safeties to do.
Secondly, by the time we pick, the most interesting prospects seem to be ones with more upside than present or to be at positions that I think add minimal marginal value this year. The discrepancy between how I’d approach this draft for Rodgers as opposed to Love has increased.
I think the best value in this draft where it coincides with need is for 2024 and beyond and not this year. Right now at S I’m leaning harder towards moving Douglas back, simply because if he does have potential there, now is the time it will have its greatest value. I’d look at some conversion prospects late in the draft to find one to develop for the future and see if Ford can be retained and platoon with Savage. That would require adjustments from Barry though.
T7Steve
March 06, 2023 at 09:13 am
Did you really say, "That would require adjustments from Barry though."?
Wouldn't that be a whole new concept?
Doesn't he seem to try to make players fit HIs rolls, not the other way around?
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 09:46 am
Oddly, he does adjust during games, but at a deeper level, yes. That’s why I left that hanging. Of course, any leader who doesn’t learn and adapt won’t be one for long. If there is any validity in the need for continuity, Barry will be working on such changes at this very moment. If he is not, I think he won’t be here in a year for that (safety) reason alone.
SicSemperTyrannis
March 06, 2023 at 11:24 am
Thank you. DC Barry does adjust, whereas MLF does not. The question remains if DC's adjustments are any better than MLF's non-adjustments; that's a terrible complement to salary cap hell.
LambeauPlain
March 06, 2023 at 12:10 pm
Barry does not adjust much...at least in meaningful ways to change the flow of a game. The only thing that saves Barry Ball are turnovers. And if they do not come, the D's prevent, soft zone gives up first downs and scores in critical situations. Like Capers, Barry is very stubborn this way.
Did anyone think, after Rodgers threw the INT vs Detroit late in the 4th, that the D would stop Lions and give the O another shot? Lions easily drained the clock. Season over.
SicSemperTyrannis
March 06, 2023 at 11:24 am
.
PatrickGB
March 06, 2023 at 08:19 am
It’s a team sport. And that team has a limited amount of money to spend on contracts. If it’s not spent on one position then there is more money to be spent on other positions. There will often be a cap hangover when a premier and expensive player is released. But it can be mitigated over time with draft picks and a healthy cap bank account.
dobber
March 06, 2023 at 09:43 am
Moving away from a player that your team has been built around often forces an objective "cold shower" or "oh, shit!" look at schemes and personnel that might not happen as often--because, out of necessity, the focal point has changed--with player X in place.
Coldworld
March 06, 2023 at 09:59 am
Which is really saying that removing Rodgers (and maybe Amos) is really removing the paper from the cracks that they covered and yet, while known of, were left unaddressed as long as they did. Certainly Adams exposed a few in LaFleur’s offensive design beyond just WR it would seem.
Since'61
March 06, 2023 at 10:01 am
QB play in the NFL is the direct output of OL play. A QB cannot be expected to play effectively if the OL is losing the LOS. It doesn't matter if the QB is Rodgers, Favre, Brady or Love.
Yes the QB needs to bring some talent to the position which I think Love has. Then the OL needs to play well. Next factor is the quality of receiving corps and their ability to run routes, get separation and catch the ball. Underpining all of this is the team's coaching and game preparation/planning.
At this point whether Love or Rodgers is the QB in 2023 the Packers OL is not very solid especially on the right side. They get beat off the LOS and the defense often plays their best pass rusher against the right side of the Packers OL. After Watson the Packers receiving corps is a series of question marks. Even Watson may stumble in his second season. fortunately the Packers have retained A. Jones and he may be the best receiver the Packers have going into 2023. The current TEs on the roster are non-factors and need an immediate upgrade.
Love will need time for the game to slow down for him and he will need to learn the strengths and weaknesses of his skill players. It will take time for him to read defenses and call the appropriate audibles.
My point is that there are numerous variables that the Packers need resolve or improve this season. That is the role of the coaching staff. How well they figure it out will determine how well Love can play during his first season. Sadly they have not been very impressive to date. Thanks, Since '61
T7Steve
March 06, 2023 at 10:18 am
I've been thinking about Aaron Jones catching passes and can't think of a single time he didn't catch it on the sideline (the right-sideline particularly). Could be old age on my part.
Do you remember them using him anywhere else on the field? If they did it would open up a whole new world in the red zone and for the rest of the receivers everywhere, wouldn't it?
jont
March 06, 2023 at 11:10 am
T7, it seems to me that backs need to get into the clear outside to start a route most of the time so they run a lot of wheel routes or sit in the flat. You can get an H-post if you line him up there, but that's Tonyan / Deguara territory in this scheme.
SicSemperTyrannis
March 06, 2023 at 12:02 pm
Tonyan? Everybody here forgets him. Isn't it against the rules to mention him? Lol. It's not like he still needs time to fully recover from an ACL or anything.
Leatherhead
March 06, 2023 at 10:27 am
""My point is that there are numerous variables that the Packers need resolve or improve this season.""
Always true, and not just for the Packers.
But here's what we know: We return the best defense in the division. We return six competent starters on the Oline. We have Jones and Dillon. We look like we might have a future star in Watson.
I think Love is going to be fine, and the Packers are going to put a pretty competitive product on the field.
SicSemperTyrannis
March 06, 2023 at 12:00 pm
The first bit of optimism I've seen in the comments!
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
March 06, 2023 at 02:43 pm
Lots of truth there 61!
Keep in mind that Love can extend plays better, but he will be able to keep defenses a little more honest should he scramble. Additionally, from what I saw against Philly he actually makes his progressions quickly as he should and then quickly unloads. He doesn't hold onto the ball unlike one AR, which puts undue stress on the OL. Love appears to pass on rhythm but admittedly needs some offensive weapons that can create quick separation, particularlyat TE & slot.
Yes, the OL needs to take big jump in 2023 from all 4 second year players. Bachtiari & Jenkins need to come back healthier & stronger. Runyan needs to be improving on the right side, and Meyers after a full season needs to be doing the same. The Packers need at least one 2nd day OL in the draft. Things may be better than you think on the line.
WestCoastPackerBacker
March 06, 2023 at 10:07 am
I'm sorry but the only team on this list that has any kind of "bright" future is the Chargers. They're the only one that seems to have truly found a franchise QB for the future. The rest are all fumbling around trying to even get to the playoffs, uncertain whether their young QB is the right guy or not. That's pretty much the future I see for GB when Rodgers retires, unless Love comes out of the gate looking like he belongs. Possible, but rare.
SicSemperTyrannis
March 06, 2023 at 12:06 pm
👍
We still don't know what the late season comment means, "we've seen everything we need" out of JL10. We have no idea what he'd do as a starter. And transitioning to him now means we need a backup QB; I just don't see that as any big advantage.
Leatherhead
March 06, 2023 at 12:14 pm
"" We have no idea what he'd do as a starter. """
Unless we listen, and think about, what the people who are directly involved in his development and the practice field say. Then, we have a pretty good idea.
We always need a backup, because QBs do get hurt and if your backup can't play, you're done. Look at the Gumchewer in 2017, and look at what Bridgewater did when Brees was injured. You've got to have a backup who can play.
Leatherhead
March 06, 2023 at 10:23 am
Over the last 30 years, every "down" season has been followed by a trip to the Championship game within two years.
2008, 6-10. 2010, ChampionshipGame
2013. Rodgers, Matthews, Cobb injured, squeaked into playoffs. 2014, Championship game
2015. The Year without Jordy. We limped into the playoffs. Next year, Championshp game
2017,, 2018.....Rodgers hurt, GumChewer not the answer. 2019, Championship game;
I'm expecting a quick rebound from last year.
Ever since Love was drafted, there was this narrative that Love was gonna suck, and that Rodgers was going to play here until he retired, and that we'd end up tradsing Love. I always thought this was stupid beyond belief. Rodgers time in Green Bay didn't depend on him; it depended on Love. And when Love was ready, he was going to be our QB. Rodgers can retire or go to the Jets, but we've moved on. He's done taking snaps for the Packers.
SicSemperTyrannis
March 06, 2023 at 12:10 pm
Could be that coaching and management agree, they're just soft selling that point trying to negotiate a better deal?
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 11:07 am
I am of the opinion our record next season will be better than it was this year, if we trade AR12. I feel the immediate injection of talent with two more draft picks in the first and second round can and will increase the talent level enough to allow Love to win eight to ten games easily, if MaLF can actually coach and if Gutey doesn't outthink himself with the picks. (I know, those are big "if's"...)
I also believe AR12 will go full Shakespeare on the PMS show tomorrow and announce his decision live with Pat.
If in fact AR12 does announce his decision live on PMS, I think if I were Gutey or Murphy, I think that would piss me off.
Maybe not piss me off so bad I said so publicly, but just enough to make it awkward.
Since NFL Network just announced Carr is going to the Saints, I feel Gutey is in the driver's seat when it comes to trading AR12.
Whether it is to the Raiders, Panthers, or Jets doesn't matter to me as long as AR12 gets traded.
My biggest fear is Murphy will overrule any AR12 trade, which would be par for the course and idiotic, which also tracks...
Packerpasty
March 06, 2023 at 05:44 pm
Well I realize many don't like the way AR operates but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't do things that way..he would let management know before the public announcement...
Leatherhead
March 06, 2023 at 12:09 pm
I think we'll be better.
Offensively, we need a legit TE to complement Tonyan and Deguara. We need a legit addition to the WR unit. We need a starter on the Oline.
We need a starting safety, and we need a DE/Edge type. We could trade down from #15 and end up with picks at #34, #45, #66, #78 #96. And we could use those five picks to address those five spots.
Also.....your boy Iosavis is making some noise. I'd take a 4th round shot at this guy, sure.
When you say "Overule the trade", I don't think that's how it works. If Gutekunst, Ball, and LaFleur are in agreement, Murphy stays out of it. When they're not, he gets involved. This decreases the likelihood that one guy can make a bad decision that screws the team.
LambeauPlain
March 06, 2023 at 12:23 pm
Rodgers did post a 6-10 record in 2008 but the O was pretty good. Sanders D, that was 11th in the NFL in 2007, plummeted to 21st in '08. They gave up a lot of yards and points.
Of the 10 losses, including 2 OT defeats, 7 were by 4 pts or less.
In the 6 wins, all but one were by double digits.
Love could actually preside over a more prolific O but have a worse record due to Barry Ball.
Leatherhead
March 06, 2023 at 03:55 pm
You should stop bleating this "Barry Ball" B.S.
Overall, at least half the defensive coordinators in the NFL put a worse product on the field than Barry. The Packers, on defense, were average or above average in a multitude of statistical measures, including the most important one, points.
361 points was two more than KC. 30 more than 6th ranked Dallas. Barry did exactly what he is being asked to do: Keep the games close so that we don't have to score 30 to win, and we held 16 opponents under 30, and most of our opponents to 24 or less.
***************************************************
So you're saying that the defense got worse when Favre retired? Are you telling me that the more a defense is on the field, the more points it will surrender? So a good offense that stays on the field helps the defense?
Packerpasty
March 06, 2023 at 03:37 pm
The Saints QB situation is that Carr is signing with them...I think he will work out well for that team....
Packerpasty
March 06, 2023 at 03:37 pm
so that leaves the Jets and Raiders....looking...
BirdDogUni
March 06, 2023 at 03:42 pm
*And Panthers, who already professed to wanting a Veteran QB... ; )
Packerpasty
March 06, 2023 at 05:42 pm
Panthers actually have a pretty good team especially for that division..
Since'61
March 07, 2023 at 08:45 am
BDU - anything is possible but I don't think that the Packers will trade Rodgers to an NFC team. Thanks, Since '61
Packerpasty
March 06, 2023 at 06:44 pm
Here's a good article about Jordan Love when he was coming out of college...
https://www.pff.com/news/college-buyer-beware-on-utah-state-qb-jordan-love
Packerpasty
March 06, 2023 at 06:46 pm
seems Love also liked "hero ball" especially in his last year in school..."fling it"..